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CHAPTER APPROVED 2017 PDF

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Следите за обновлениями, делайте свои копии знаний и не говорите потом, что мы вас не предупреждали. Voice of cittadelmonte.info МБ. Search. Home · Warhammer 40k 8th Chapter Approved Warhammer 40k 8th Chapter Approved June 21, | Author: Jocke | Category: N/A. As posted in the community page they have spoiled 11 factions that will receive updated points, rules, and strategems. Some things I expected.


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Warhammer 40k 8th Chapter Approved - Free download as PDF File .pdf) or read online for free. 40k 8th beta patch DLC. Chapter Approved - Free download as PDF File .pdf), Text File .txt) or read online for free. (printed first in Chapter Approved: Edition) also. Although we strive to ensure that our rules are perfect, sometimes mistakes do creep in, or the intent of a rule isn't as clear as it might be. These documents.

Renegade Knights Adepta Sororitas The Eight Chapter Approved: All Rights Reserved.

Chapter Approved is a particularly exciting opportunity, as it allows the Design Studio to rebalance the game on a yearly basis. First, there are a few changes to the core rules of Warhammer 40, specific to matched play. Boots on the Ground means that no Flyers can score points, while Troops in every army now have priority over other non-Troops units when scoring objectives.

Additionally, Command re-rolls can no longer be used to affect Mission dice rolls. These are rolls that are used to determine who gets the first turn, whether the game continues after turn 5, and so on. Understrength units can only be taken in Auxiliary Support Detachments, while the rules on targeting characters have received a very slight change in order to prevent, for want of a better word, shenanigans involving line of sight manipulation. Of course, the most exciting change is new points for loads of units!

Since the release of Warhammer 40,, the game has evolved considerably, with the release of codexes and points changes therein bringing new units to prominence relative to some of their fellows. These points changes are designed to make every option feel more viable. Certain units, however, were crowding out other options and, as such, some have seen an increase, while others are now much more viable options.

While you can expect many more codexes next year, we know that many gamers are eager for more rules for their army. Enter Chapter Approved:. Each one of these groups will be getting a Warlord Trait, Relic, at least one Stratagem, and in some cases even more.

These are designed to add some thematic character to your army and should put you on a more even footing with those armies that have codexes already.

Thanks to some nifty errata, Space Wolves armies already have access to an array of Primaris units to accompany some old favourites. In Chapter Approved, as well as an array of points changes more on those soon!

The lifeblood of Warhammer 40, is missions. How you build an army and write a list is one thing, but every Warhammer 40, mission throws new challenges your way and forces you to rethink trusted strategies in the face of new obstacles and objectives.

As well as narrative, there are 12 new missions for matched play games — 6 Eternal War missions and 6 Maelstrom of War missions. Roving Patrol, on the other hand, forces each player to split their army into 3 and randomly select a starting force from them, with the rest arriving as reinforcements. This considerably neuters the power of armies that rely on powerful first-turn attacks and provides an unusual puzzle for generals to solve.

Do you try to balance each starting force, or concentrate your most powerful units in one for a chance to overwhelm your opponent early on? In Chapter Approved, Apocalypse is back, featuring rules and scenarios for playing your biggest battles ever. The toolset in the book is a flexible and robust base from which you could build countless scenarios.

The Apocalypse missions are similarly awesome. Our favourite is Exterminatus, set during the death of a world while viral bombardments, cyclonic torpedoes and orbital lasers tear apart the very planet your warriors stand on. Converting is a great part of the Warhammer 40, hobby. This is celebrated in Chapter Approved, which features rules for designing your own Land Raiders.

As such, we decided that the Land Raider would be the perfect candidate for our first set of vehicle design rules. Designing a Land Raider is simple.

Each Land Raider has a main armament that determines its total transport capacity; hurricane bolters, for instance, give you 16 transport slots, while lascannons give you A running compilation of rumors, leaks, sneak peaks for Vigilus Ablaze supplement.

With new rules, point adjustments, stratagems and units. Chapter Approved Leak Compilation Nov 20, Check back everyday as new leaks and rumors for Warhammer 40k 8th edition Chapter Approved Supplement will be added, without notification. Pre-Order Date: An enormous toolkit of rules, updates and ways to play, Chapter Approved is an essential purchase for any Warhammer 40, player. Expanding upon the rules found in the Warhammer 40, book, this page softback book contains narrative-driven battles and scenarios depicting brutal sieges, exciting new ways to play, mechanics for designing your own vehicles and a host of new rules to take to the battlefield.

Open Play Games of Warhammer 40, with few restrictions, where players are free to invent their own stories and frameworks with unlimited force sizes — this is Open Play. Chapter Approved provides the following guides to making your Open Play games as open and fun as possible: Narrative Play Narrative Play games are characterised by pre-generated storylines that often take in entire worlds embroiled in war, from the initial invasions to the bloody battles that follow.

Chapter Approved provides rules and missions that the players can chain together, following a conflict from the initial spark to its brutal denouement: Matched Play For many players, the thrill of Warhammer 40, is in testing their mettle against equally-powerful opponents in games where the fight is not decided by who has the biggest gun.

Included in this book: Appendix The Appendix features a collection of supplementary content which can be used in any games of Warhammer 40, Cerebus Tank D.

Tank Relic Fellblade Super H. Warlord Trait: Blade to replace power sword. Warlord can fight first even if he did not charge Relic: Deathwatch Rules Warlord Trait: Re-roll failed wound rolls Relic: Drukari Rules Warlord Traits: Wych Cult: Heal d3 wounds at the start of each turn Dark Eldar: Re-roll to hits and to wound rolls of a 1 during the fight phase.

For each model killed bearer gains a wound Strategem: Can only be used once per battle. Re-roll hit rolls of a 1 Relic: At the end of the next movement phase, return it to the board using Cult Ambush.

A Primus may roll 3 dice instead. Adds one to Attacks Relic: Re-roll Deny Witch Tests Relic: Dec 9, Release: Dec I believe February release will see Ynnari since they are not in there. Both only got updates for forge world units, nothing for units, that would be in a codex. And ynnari just got reboxed, the index rules were added to the box. Why would they do that, if Ynnari would get a codex soon? This was across the board. Ynnari is the only omission but I would be really surprised if they get their own codex.

Chapter Approved 2018

So they've brought chainfists down to 14 points from 22? That is a good move, as it was about 8 points overcosted with power fists being Now I need to make a Cataphractii squad with 5 chainfists. Yeah, I was happy to see that. It seemed really odd to me that PowerFists and Thunder Hammers got that drop in the Codexes, but ChainFists didn't, despite being in more or less the same "weight class.

No changes to Tau points it seems and FW points were there. Hammerheads down to normal level, Drones to 7 pts and everything else jacked up. No we don't have a leak, or no they just didn't change any Tau pts?!? That would be fucked up. The Ork points adjustments aren't nearly enough to break them out of their mono-build doldrums, but I'll take whatever they can get. Power klaws are 13 points each now? Fuck it, in their current state that alone is cause for dancing in the streets!

Yeah I still can't see myself running the buggies, etc they seem to have tried to help. The whole thing boils down to cheaper powerklaws.

Warhammer 40k 8th Chapter Approved 2017

I'm a little surprised they left the Stompa at its current cost. Just not worth it. Yeah, the Stompa really needs to come down, as does the Battlewagon. It's like they don't understand how people decide what to put in their armies. Yeah, Trakks and Buggies are not going to happen — and that's before you factor in the Tankbustaz getting the Tank Hunters rule, access to Bomb Squigs, and no reduction in their firepower until the Trukk is dead.

Even with their Outflank stuff, they need to come down another points each before they'll start being worthwhile. But at least they're getting closer! Am I missing something? I wouldn't call it great, but it was surprisingly shooty for its cost and the general trend here is to apply a huge nerf to anything FW that is even vaguely popular. Essentially the whole book is different now.

Like why are Malefic Lords 80 and Primaris Psykers are 46? Why do conscripts cost 4 points despite being completely inferior to Imperial Guard infantry. Why does any of the forge world stuff cost what it costs? Psykers still have to pay for their Force Staff, so their cost is secretly 58pts. Tomguycot was probably factoring in the Force Stave already: Thanks to the way prices are scattered around it's always a bit more effort work out real prices.

And that's before you get to Forge World who don't even sort their stuff alphabetically! I honestly think they are just soft banning FW, generally, from competitive play by shoving the pts through the roof.

I'm not against it. I think this is a viable concern relating to your first line. While the majority of the army is the same, the Conscripts can basically be ignored from the codex, you will need to scratch out point values, etc.

It's a double edged sword. On one hand, we do not have years of a game defined by an overpowered unit s that does not get addressed. On the other hand, we are buying products that immediately need patches ala computer technology.

Updating armies or buying new books is not. Good rule of thumb, if it seems too good — do not go out and buy extra stuff for it. If you already have it or want it regardless, go for it.

That's the problem. Their changes are often nonsensical with neither rhyme nor reason, and GW being GW it's not like they will do a design commentary explaining their reasoning like, for instance, Privateer Press does when they change something, or like how video game designers do. As far as we know, these changes are just random "Hey let's drop this unit by 5 points" musings over tea. Combined with Magnus staying untouched it gives the feeling that GW just really likes their Primarchs either because half of Black Library spends most of its time wanking them or because they fly off the shelves aplarently.

Why is it that some OP units get a lovetap and others get piledrived off a bridge? Guilliman's point increase feels a bit small, but combined with the changes to how detachments are built it will likely mean you see a lot less of him- ditto with Magnus and Mortarion, and you won't be able to stick them in detachments with each other or with Knights anymore. Detachments have to be drawn entirely from a single codex.

No more Soup detachments, although Soup armies using detachments from several codices are still legal. So if you wanted to bring, say, an Assassin from Index 2 the Culexus has been a popular choice in many lists , how would you do it? I'm not entirely certain how that will interact with some of the "small" factions.

Several different playtesters I know had mentioned it in confidence. I don't have a screencap or other explicit confirmation, but I don't know of any good reason why they would each give me the same plausible lie. Welp, nevermind, call me an idiot. Just talked to a playtest guy who has a full copy now, and they dropped both the "3x smite per turn" and "detachments from a single faction" rules that were in the original version.

Woo, Soup's reign shall not end yet. Pretty rough beatin an army with 2 distinct and seperate win conditions. Plus side, my "fluff" army with an inquisitor in is still fine, which may not be the best army ever, but is actually my favourite.

Also means Celestines still ridiculously viable, she will cost 50 more points to field, but you get an extra gemini and i think she will still consistently tie up more than her points worth of tanks if she isn't just chowing down on chars. My fire raptor with two twin autocannons and two hell fire missiles with the bolt storm cannon went from pts to pts I use this in my current list. My thought too haha!

I expected a tiny drop for Deathstorm drop pod….. My Sisters took a hit, for taking Celestine and Repressors my current list went up by pts. But if she buffed only Sisters, then they'd actually need to do something about the Sisters army to make people buy her.

I am fully in agreement with this, i would have liekd to see celestine nerfed more elegantly, simply say acts of faith only happen when in a detachment and it would be fine. My supposition is that when sisters finally get a book this kind of thing will be fixed, but for now, she had to see the price hike, its just the whole 24" move fly char with a tiny base and incredible survivability.

She single handedly ties up pts of tanks from turn 1 onwarads. On the Barbed Hierodule, note that it has a pair of Massive ScyTals, which got a 38 point drop, so it's overall at just a 2 point increase. Yeah, but at least it didn't get significantly worse, which I've seen people whining about because they only looked at the base cost change. It's the principle of the thing. There's enough worth genuinely complaining about.

Why add to that pile unnecessarily? It also means that the Scythed Hierodule actually did get a significant price drop, since its base price stayed the same while the ScyTals got cheaper. Not enough to make that good, either, I don't think, but still.

I haven't had a chance to get my 'Dule on the field, and haven't really looked closely at much of anything from FW beyond the Malanthrope, so I can't really say, but that does sound weird. Then again, this is Forge World we're talking about. Actually you should be happy, the 3 already announced codexes are also having no point changes. It makes no sense to work on a temporay fix, if the codex is only a month away.

So which codex may be the second for january? Sicaran varients went down, punisher is now the same points as the vanilla one and the venator is 75pts cheaper!

I'm going off battlescribe for the codex pred ltd and it says a pred autocannon is 49pts. Don't have the codex to check. Pretty sure there was nothing there about not playing against Poxwalkers but just headesking over one of Andy's hyperbole comments that even make normal hyperbole blush. However, it seems whenever this list is actually doing very well, the player is playing some of the rules wrong — for example creating pox walkers whenever other pox walkers die.

I don't think taking multiple units is the best method to play them, you can use brimstones to buff the number past the point they can be beaten in melee, and fabius bile has a 1: After he buffs the walkers you can use him to murder your cultists making more poxwalkers and chance to buff cultists to T4 too. Because the psychic stuff makes them -1 to hit always, and makes them T5 they are incredibly survivable, and its not like alpha legion cultists trade especially badly either.

The games i have lost have all been to losing the poxwalkers on T1. I think it might be worth to take a seconf 10m poxwalker unit to go in the second redoubt as a fall back plan. That's investing a hilarious number of points along with Typhus all to make one unit of shitty little dudes slightly more competent.

Chapter Approved Points Leak - 3++

Poxwalkers are useful because of their durability and screening. You aren't losing to Poxwalkers, you're losing to something else behind the Poxwalkers that you are ignoring as you fruitlessly pump firepower into them.

I would suggest you stick to constructive criticism that i can at least respond to reasonably. As you might recall, my point that razorbacks were bad, was in fact backed up by a great deal of data and experience. If you haven't faced the army, why not ask why i think Poxwalkers are so hard to beat, analysis of all the changes actually makes it turn out the poxwalker army is weaker:. This combination of changes means you are no longer stuck with the dilema: In games i played both with and against the poxwalkers, it amassed an impressive record.

Notedly it even performs well vs codex nids, which it utterly destroys in melee, and eldar stacking negative modifiers, as it turns out the eldar simply do not have enough anti infantry to take on horde armies.

If the Eldar armies you are seeing don't have much anti-infantry, they are building their army wrong. Shadow Spectres pre-nerf , Swooping Hawks, and Shining Spears are all fantastic tools against various types of infantry and should be able to clear out things post haste. I'm aware of the army you speak of, but the thing is the Poxwalkers are not the good part of it. They're just kinda a blob that is intended to be one more thing to deal with- it's the big guys in the list that are doing all the heavy lifting.

I'm not saying Poxwalkers are a bad unit- they're great at the limited job that they do. But there's so very, very many ways to shut them down that I am baffled by the idea that you are losing to them as opposed to losing to other models in the list.

Do you not have any vehicles or monsters that can charge in and lock them down? Even a humble Rhino or Armored Sentinel will keep a squad of Poxwalkers busy for the rest of the game by itself, and they aren't fast enough to ever avoid being re-charged even after disengaging. Constructive criticism on hyperbolic comments is hard. On nearly every topic you speak of. We are always happy for everyone to provide their 2cents; the more opinions and discussion the better but conversations with you are very frustrating.

Your Razorback example is great. You started off with "very much lacking in resilience and shooting" and then moved the conversation to GK ranged shooting is not as efficient as AM shooting with their buffs. Which, well no shit. But you also have to invest a lot of points for that firebase to be efficient, you are then splitting army buffs which becomes it's own army building issue. Just because an opinion is held by the masses does not mean it is correct but Razorbacks are consistently an important part of loyalist MEQ armies no matter how you swing the cat at it.

We've had this argument about Poxwalkers when you told us Conscripts were shit. Despite huge amounts of evidence to the contrary. Poxwalkers are a solid unit, cheap and durable to provide screening. Puppy outlines all of the points necessary to rebut another "unbeatable" statement.

How are the Electro-Priests auto-winning games when they charge T1 going? You will notice that conversations with you generally end up with others not responding anymore after noted levels of frustration. Maybe so, I lose interest in them when I realise that people started arguing with facts and are instead using anecdotal evidence and as for moving the goalposts, in a post about me moving the goalposts, you offer nothing to counter the information i provide that explain how poxwalkers work, reinforce that you have taken nothing on board and still think they just screen things.

Lets not mess about saying they are unbeatable was wrong, they are and have been beaten, but beating them is far from a flippant "oh you just do this". Whilst my comment exaggerated their usefulness, it is truly staggering how many comments people are making, showing they have absolutely no idea how they even work, they just assume they are bad.

They ran with either Tzeentch daemons extra protection vs alpha strike for magnus and Aetoas or Alpha Legion cos fuck it when you all in a first turn charge, lets do it right. Now if you faced it, you know this was not to be fucked with, both Aeatoas and Magnus were enough to win games, and the Lord of Skulls was like a Knight on crack.

Better shooting, better melee, more resilient. It's weaknesses were screens good ones by pro players and grey knights, so you tended to see a huge focus on the anti infantry from the last portion of the army, giving your opponent a valid win condition: I have been running iterations of this army for a while, i started using a spartan to carry the poxwalkers because I knew they were my win condition but dropped it for Zarakynel cos i didn't need them, I dropped the alpha legion batallion cos i didn't need another 3cp.

Post Chapter Approved I am not sure how the army looks. What i do know is the poxwalkers are staying until they get nerfed , they are without a doubt the best 60pts you can ever spend if you are running a DG detachment, because in any game where they go off, they can win the game outright by themselves. Even when they don't go off, it will cost your opponent ridiculous amounts of resources to get rid of them which means you should come out ahead elsewhere.

Again, i hope that this clarifies my point, that sure, it is not unbeatable, but hopefully you are now educated as to why it is such an incredibly hard thing to deal with, and why the poxwalkers were hiding with the wave serpents in a "Chapter Approved" proof bunker. I literally referred to Puppy's post which covered everything. You did not respond to him I notice. And you still have not addressed his points. You've then used your own play experience as an example of "facts" after you have just complained about anecdotal evidence.

Not to mention your army which you just described was focusing on the components other than the Poxwalkers in the army. You know, the dangerous stuff. My apologies i had replied seems it didn't send, i will redo the post so you can understand why they are considered top tier and just how deadly they are.

From start of your movement phase until the start of your next movement phase, for every infantry model friend or foe killed within 7" of the pox walkers, add 1 model to the unit. From the start of your movement phase until the start of your next movement phase, you may only target the poxwalkers if they are the closest enemy unit. Myth one, pox walkers are incredibly slow and can never reach anything.

Truth they are fucking slow, but because any phase in which one dies you can add a pox walker in coherency, you gain 2 and a half inches of movement, using brimstones as I was originally, you can get them to get across pretty tidely, but they seem to be going just fine without them as after turn 1, Mortarion does not urgently need warp time, he is pretty fast. No two ways about it thats terrible, but with the buffs from the psykers that were buffing morty S5 with 2A hitting on 2's wounding most infantry on 2's is well frankly pretty okay.

Usually, the final tally as they hit melee is around 50 or so on turn 3, games where morty is alive at this point it is usually much higher, the poxwalkers can get close enough for his t2 kills to add to their number and things get -really- silly from that point.

Now this is a conundrum for a shooting army, how do you deal with them, T1 for sure kill them if you can, if not mow down all the cultists. For a melee army, it is almost checkmate. They are so good in melee, and even if you trade Just los the poxwalkers turn 1 and proceed with the game as normal. Nobody is arguing Poxwalkers are not good and a useful unit in what is probably the best army currently in 40k.

What they are saying is they are not "already all but unbeatable". Goal posts change again. Yeah, Andy…. People respond to you using facts, and you lose interest in having a discussion. You argue from the authority of your play experience which is a flaw we all have, but I don't think anyone here actually considers your play experience meaningful, while I'm pretty sure some of the people who are commenting against you — very much NOt including me!

Who are you that we should care about your experience to such a degree? That's as maybe, i don't really think i can argue with your assessment, and i realise i do myself no favours, that said I am pretty confident that every player here who posted that pox walkers are a screening unit, would be rubbing their heads in confusion at how they lost as of the bloody things ran over their army. I haven't managed to sucintly explain how tricky poxwalkers are, i really hope some people will just proxy up the army play against it so they can see what they are dealing with.

I lost, but it was incredibly close, the shadow spectres are still ridiculous, but having 2 sets of jetpack infantry that can both move or well have a chance to, i had to use soulburst from Yvraine to move the Shadow Spectres up after quicken whiffed is just incredible. I think they will be a real nightmare for imp guard to deal with, scout sentinels are a must have.

As you mentioned earlier i didnt respond to puppy, because i felt he had made enough of a fool of himself so i was cutting him a break but if you insist:. Wrong, they are screened.

Hawks are an okay unit cos you can deep strike them then move them 12" with quicken or soulburst then charge the enemies tanks, basically slightly more blue celestines in the process doing some random damage to random stuff, but they really aren't anti anything, their guns are way over costed. Almost all of the major point changes were for factions that already have codices. Factions without a codex didn't get many, presumably because they will be getting one in relatively short order with the release of their codex.

It makes sense, even if it's not thrilling for those players that only field one tournament army. The massive price hikes on the superheavies are pretty laughable, though. Almost all of them are unonscionsably bad now. My assumption is they got a lot harder to hurt without macro weapons. Interesting to see how PL interacts with these changes, some units are much better using pl some a lot worse.

Effective armies in official gw tournies look massively different to ITC ones. Some of the choices are a bit weird. Need to take into account with no help whatsoever the solitaire is a serious threat to T1 charge and kill most chars on the other side.

Then soulburst itself and go lock up 1 or 2 enemy tanks. I think so. The fact that she costs so much more than a troupe master, is merely because troupe masters are ludicrously undercosted. I mean there was some focus on that Death Guard for example but then other factions like Necrons and Tau got actual nothing and factions like Guard got the nerf bat hard while there are still bizarre things in the book like 40 point terribad demolisher cannons.

And WTF is the deal with the meltagun nerf? If anything they were slightly too expensive before getting their price jacked up. This whole thing is just half-assed as Hell. Deathwatch terminators are still 32 points for the body? Still seems excessive for you to pay 8 points for fearless.

Librarian with jump pack? Index says only captains can take jump packs. Does this mean they can take them now? Same regard: Heavy thunder hammers are unchanged. With thunder hammers being just shy of literally half the points. It;s certainly strange. Obviously with the amount of plasma rounds flying around it is still not especially effective, but thats an issue with plasma costs, not the kill team. The way i look at it, they gave me a SS for the sergeant now to go with the one on the black shield and my unit is 5 pts cheaper.

Heavy thunder hammers i was never fond of, they cost nearly as much as a frag cannon and have way less damage output and you have to melee to use them.

But with the decrease in Storm hammers i will probably buy a few with the points saved. I am more interested that i can now field Primaris Death Watch, though i think they will be basically crap unless they give them the bolter ammo.

Chapter Approved 2017: Leak Compilation

No Lieutenants or Ancients, both of which Deathwatch would have loved. But at least they get Apothecaries. Sadly Special Issue Ammunition specifically says "When this unit…" which means it has to have the special rule.

Prior to the nerfs i had already suggested the vampire raider could be used similarly to the sokar, whilst the lack of firepower is noticeable, it is easily replaced with a few Crimson Hunters, the innate -2 to hit " range pretty much means it will win any shooting war, and it is immune to being charged by the vast majority of troops.

The nerf to the Redoubt means the redoubt can't answer it, and i am not sure anything else can get the required firepower, add in some psyker support and it is incredibly hard to kill, if not flat out impossible. There goes Space Marines!

Seriously, nerfing razorbacks is fine, but can we have actualy fixes to the prices of our overcosted units, please? Like, almost all of our infantry is grossly overcosted. Oh and the Stormraven didn't need to be nerfed. Having played with them a lot, they pack a mean punch but are ridiculously fragile for their cost. Rarely did mine live past Turn 2.

I was already planning to cut them from my list — now the choice is easy. It's whats known as "we know what the problem is, we don't want to nerf it too much, so we nerf this other stuff that isn't a problem but is part of the army". The correct fix was increase the wounds on predators, which is what makes them garbage, by all means leave them t7 but at least give them marginal protection in the form of 14w or so, make them at least stand up a little to leman russes in a firefight.

I am not sure they needed to change prices so much as give units decent weapon options, maybe some close combat weapons with pen on for reivers could be a possibility?

Allow terminators to field all heavy weapons instead of the laughable one per unit. The problem is that "elite" infantry is generally overcosted. Marines stand up to bolter fire about as well as the equivalent of points' worth of Guardsmen, but fare far worse as soon as plasma and other high AP weapons enter play.

To compound matters, they do a lot less damage than the equivalent amount of points of Guardsmen. They would need to come down in points enough so that they would be more cost-effective against "small arms"-type weapons but worse against high AP ones while also reaching better parity in the firepower department.

For sure, there is some value in hiding out of LoS if you can Turn 1 then moving out to deliver troops and fire mitigating some of the incoming firepower, but at such a serious cost in your own firepower it is hardly worth it.

Sure i can buy a razorback to protect my devastators, or i could just buy another squad of devastators and be better off. Alternatively permanently -1 to hit at 12" and over thanks to raven guard.

He thinks space marines are overcosted, ever looked at Necrons? We've never been in a worse state and so far all I've seen is GW shitting on us further at every opportunity. Necrons have viable transports. Thats all i got sorry, your right, necrons are in terrible shape in a world where aggressors are this good.

You know that these things are not mutually exclusive, right? The thing I'm finding in my games is that all you're really paying for with most basic infantry is bodies on the table. They don't actually do much, other than hide on objectives and try not to die. Guard Infantry seemingly your current bugbear is the clearest example of this for me. Yeah, they're cheap compared to other infantry, possibly even objectively cheap for their damage output — but their damage output is nevertheless fuck-all.

What was the stat from the other thread… something like 90 Guard Infantry can just barely kill a single squad of Marines if they all somehow manage to get into rapid-fire range? What a goddamn waste of time. No it takes 18 Guardsmen 9 in RF range to kill a single Marine. That might seem like a lot but thats less than 80 points' worth of models.

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